Beyond 13 Reasons Why and Love In The Time of Corona, Tommy Dorfman is a deep and complex person. At their home in New York, they are sitting down and watching a helicopter land on top of an adjacent building. ‘That’s the craziest thing!’ exclaims Tommy to Photgrapher, MaryV. Together, the two starred in Calvin Klein’s 2020 #PROUDINMYCALVINS campaign long side MaryV’s partner Chella Man and countless other queer icons including Jari Jones, Pabllo Vittar and Reece King. MaryV is watching Tommy via FaceTime, looking with wonder as they inquisitively look at where the helicopter has come from- a distraction from the interview that MaryV doesn’t seem to mind.

They are sitting to discuss Tommy’s experience as a non-binary person in the spotlight, their experiences in the industry and why the people who are also their biggest supporters are also the people who make them feel like shit.

MaryV
(laughing) So, when's the last time you got butterflies?

Tommy Dorfman 
Oh my goodness. It's such a rare feeling because I think you attribute butterflies to romance.

MaryV
Oh?

Tommy
And you attribute butterflies to lust or having a crush, and I certainly have had many crushes in my life. But I'm also married, uh. (laughs). Which is fine, we're in an open marriage so it's very flexible in that sense, but- he last time I got butterflies? Hmm, I went on a hike with a boy, a social distance hike, about three weeks ago. (laughs). Which is really sweet. And it was the first time in so long that I'd met someone new In person and I think I was anxious for all the reasons that one might be anxious for beyond thinking this person's cute, but also concerned for my health and safety - s anyone should be, meeting somebody on the internet.

MaryV
I find it interesting that you took that question more the romantic route.

Tommy
Instead of the creative route?

MaryV
I don't know. Yeah.

Tommy
Gosh. I kind of felt butterflies driving into the city last night. In a way that I hadn't been excited for in a long time. I think because I haven't been here in so long. And I lived here for most of my 20s and I love this city so much. So just as I was getting closer and traffic was building up, I was on the phone with Peter (Zurkuhlen, whom they married in 2016) and I screamed at the top of my lungs.

MaryV
(laughs) think it has a good mix of every emotion ever, all at once?

Tommy
Yep, it's really intense.I forgot how intense it was - Especially right now.

MaryV
For sure. When do you feel the most beautiful?

Tommy
When I'm surrounded by friends or people that I feel respected by and people that I feel see me for who I am as a person.

‘I walk around so much of my life with a pretty big guard up, so when I have an opportunity to be vulnerable with my family of friends is probably when I feel the most beautiful.’

MaryV
Yeah. I feel similar, yeah. I think the chosen family and the people that are your friends, it's  the most important.

Tommy
Mm-hmm, but  those are also the same people who make me feel the most ugly.

MaryV  
Interesting. Why?

Tommy
I think because, with any close relationship. A deep, profound love can easily translate into a resentment. Those feelings are closely tied I think.I think it also, with vulnerability, because you're feeling so vulnerable sometimes  ugly parts inside of you come out

MaryV  
That you don't want others to see, but because you feel so safe, they come out - Unexpectedly or unexpectedly

Tommy
Yeah. And it's often a critical part of self. Mine at least don't tend to be so apparent I think. It's more my own personal conversations I have with myself in my head.

MaryV
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense, speaking of conversations, what types of roles do you really wanna play?

Tommy
I'm really interested in playing roles that are different from my circumstances. Which I've had an opportunity to. Most actors have an opportunity to do that, so I'm always seeking those types of stories out, or stories that I've never seen before or being told in a different way. I am pretty dedicated to playing queer roles or taking space in queer stories. I think it's important and I just enjoy that more. There was a period in my early beginning stages of my career where I felt like I had something to prove, and it felt really necessary to play cis straight male roles to validate a certain part of myself and also show people how versatile I am. The reality is those aren't necessarily the roles I wanna be playing anyway.

MaryV
Mm-hmm

Tommy
It was more for other people than it was for myself.  Now I think it's interesting being... sorry, it's just-

MaryV
No. If you want to move on, we can too.

Tommy
No, no, no, I'm just trying to figure out the way that I wanna say this..

MaryV
Take your time.

Tommy
Yeah, it feels... I guess I'm interested in playing more adult roles. Which is fun, and it's cool to relive some of those experiences in a different way and through a different lens. However, I'd love to do something a little bit more mature.

MaryV
No I get it,  How do you think the gay stereotype has affected your-

Tommy
(interrupting) I also wanna play Lady Macbeth.

MaryV
Lady Macbeth?

Tommy
So bad (laughing).

MaryV
Okay, we're putting it out into the universe. How do you think the gay stereotype has affected the roles that you play?

Tommy

I think people lack creativity and there's a lot of diversity for the sake of diversity. However, in those ‘diverse’ characters, there's not a lot of diversity. (laughs). It's often the same trope or the same type of queer person and something that I've always been interested in as a writer and a storyteller more behind the lens, which can lead to being also in front of the lens, not necessarily in the same project are telling more diverse queer stories and bringing queer characters to life that aren't the gay best friend or  the sassy hairdresser.. Whatever it is. But also bringing queer characters to the front more, carrying shows and carrying films  is important - Not always be secondary or part of the C storyline.

MaryV
Mm-hmm

Tommy

‘I think it's hard for people to trust that queer people are financeable and that they're gonna get their return back..on investment.’

There's a word for that, or a term. My husband uses some business term, safe RFI or something like that. RDI?  People are scared, people in power are scared more of their failure than actors failing or storytellers failing and queer storytellers. So the system is not set up right now for queer stories to be successful necessarily...But I think it could be….

MaryV
I agree, I have to ask, what's been one of the most shocking experiences you’ve had in the film industry?

Tommy
In the film industry? I think I have the idea or expectation that it would be more evolved. [especially] in the way of casting and the system as a whole, and the idea of doing press, and the idea of how stories should be told, and what deserves to be told or doesn't deserve to be told. I think I was naïve going into this business, thinking that people were ready for certain types of stories. [people are] Ready to invest in them and it's just not true… There are people that are, but it's really hard to find.

MaryV
Yeah?

Tommy
And I'm grateful to have found some of those people. I think in with any industry, it's finding yourself in it and where you feel safe in taking up space. It can be really challenging, especially in an industry that's driven by personality and ego and so much can depend on what you look like or what your voice sounds like or what your sexuality. Especially, living in a world where everything is on the internet and social media, and that being kind of a requirement. The idea of any level of anonymity or mystery has been stripped from my generation of actors. Whereas, I think before, actors had a lot more opportunity because they weren't sharing facets of their life on the internet, and without me realizing it, I stripped myself of a lot of opportunities by having an Instagram, and yet it does. I'm wondering when- when that's gonna change and you hear this too in every type of job. They'll track your social media and see, you know, if you posted something kind of racy, and that something disqualifies you.

MaryV
Oh for sure

Tommy

‘So, this idea of having to be perfect human... in order to be employable or worthy of something is exhausting and I don't think it's fair.’

(laughs) When I work, I at least get to work in an industry where you also get praised for being different, I guess to a certain degree... but what does that actually mean on a substantial level and all?

MaryV
Yeah. This is really interesting, Because talking about social media, I think is so new now. So many people are really falling super deep into it and there are so many conversations and anxieties surrounding it.

Tommy
Yeah, and I think the- well, because I think the effects of it are becoming clearer. 'Cause at the beginning, I don't think there was enough data to look back to and say, "Oh, this really has shifted culture in a dark, dark way” and I know now, at least, that I'm not alone in feeling that social media kind of ruined my chance at life, (laughs) to a certain degree, and yet, it's so addicting and so hard to get rid of.

MaryV
That's the thing that baffles me is, it is, by far, probably the largest component to my anxiety and depression and mental health.

Tommy
And yet, I don't or am not willing to remove myself from it.

MaryV
Sure!

Tommy
I don't know what level of success I have to reach (laughs) or whatever that word even means, in order to go offline and not have decisions about me, as an actor or writer or storyteller, be based on how I perform on social media.

MaryV
And the numbers, the followers... 

Tommy
Yeah, or my worthiness, even in doing collaborations with brands or other stuff that I do really enjoy doing.But for now, it's also the thing that has given me so many more opportunities, on a career level, and it's just now I think there's an awareness with myself and a lot of my friends who have large social media platforms, and I'm sure you and Chella [Man, American YouTuber and partner to MaryV]  feel this way too.  I know that this is beneficial for me, as a career, but how do I separate myself from this? and that's something I've been trying to figure out.

MaryV
Chella and I are talking about this, so much, all the time. But, I mean, how do you keep healthy and happy relationships with friends, families, partners, when everyone is watching those relationships online?

Tommy
I keep a lot of those relationships offline and when they're online, it's very intentional and with a certain amount of permission or strategy involved. Because there's so much I don't share- and would never share. It's funny. A lot of people are surprised that I'm married, in part,  because once I started getting a lot of followers, I stopped posting about my husband because it was a couple a year, maybe, but becauseI never want my career or the attention I get because of the field that I've chosen to work in to affect my husband and his ability to do what he wants to do and his privacy- o, it's very rare that we go to events together. It's very rare that he participates in my work stuff. It's very rare that we share stuff on the internet that is- pertains to our home life, because that, to me, feels sacred- it had the experience of friendships being torn apart and relationships crumbling and things feeling really insecure when they're built on a foundation of presentation - I met my husband when I had 20 followers on Instagram. You know? So it doesn't- that's never had anything to do with our relationship and it's never been a big part of our relationship.

MaryV
Yeah?

Tommy
And my interactions with people, while they exist online, or on the internet as everyone's do, I would say my closest relationships, we communicate via phone calls or FaceTimes or getting together in person... as much as possible anyway and then, maybe the decision is made to share something.

MaryV
Yeah, ah. I think just making that big decision of just being, this is where the line's really hard drawn.

Tommy

‘Yeah. I mean, social media is performance art and I think don't mistake it for anything other than that.’

I think, if you have 20 followers, you're still performing. If you have 200, 20,000, 200,000, 2 million, it doesn't matter. It's still a performance.

MaryV
Hmm.

Tommy
I'm thinking a lot about how- what it would mean to not perform in life. (laughs) Not performing for people. Not perform for people I don't know at the coffee shop. I just mean in my day-to-day and I'm not sure anyone knows exactly, who they are.

MaryV
Really?

Tommy
You know? And with so many different opportunities to be whatever type of person you want to be, social media make it harder and harder, for me, and I would say for my peers as well, to understand purpose, truth and our own humanity.

MaryV
Do you still get nervous on camera, whether that's..

Tommy (interrupts)
Yes.

MaryV
(laughing) Because you do also writing and modeling and all of
those things. I mean, do you get nervous in those spaces and-

Tommy
Of course. I feel the most confident... That's not true. (laughing) Okay. Yes. Uh, from a performance point of view, yes. 100% still get very nervous. What I do to calm out those nerves varies, job to job. It depends on what the scenario is. When it's a film or television set, my nerves tend to dissipate after the first couple days, once I get to know people and I feel comfortable and grounded.

MaryV
And what do you do to combat the nerves?

Tommy
I try to pray and meditate, and that's sort of my solution. Not really meditate, but quiet breathing and through breath work, quiet my mind as much as possible, which is something I've been doing for many years to combat my anxiety- which I have chronic anxiety disorder.  I'm prone to panic attacks and a myriad of other things that come out of that, and I'm always afraid that it's going to be debilitating and I'm not going to be able to accomplish something or do something I'm supposed to do.

MaryV
Yeah.

Tommy
So, I do my best to have a daily practice around that stuff, so that when really intense things come up in work or personal life, I'm hopefully better equipped for the moment. I get hyper-focused, honestly, and that helps combat my nerves. So, I get really nervous anytime I have to go to- not have to, but anytime I'm going to a fashion show or anything where I know there's gonna be a lot of people or anytime I'm going to a birthday party and I know there are going to be a lot of people. (laughs) But, if it's a situation where there's gonna be a lot of people between getting out of the car and getting into the space, I have to take everything very moment-by-moment..  and drink a lot of water.

MaryV
Yeah. Important.

Tommy
(laughs) And in work, I just try to remember that ever- I- it helps me- that- that idea [of] imagine[ing] everyone naked.

MaryV
(laughs)

Tommy
You know what hey used to tell you as a kid? For me, it's more that I imagine everyone has the same crippling anxiety and self-hatred and doubt that I have-

MaryV
Yeah.

Tommy
But also, the nerves are good. I love- when you talk about butterflies, right? It kind of feels like that.

MaryV
Well, on a lighter note, What does a perfect day look like to you?

Tommy
Hmm. I think of a day when I'm not wanting for so much. (laughing) A day when I'm able to be present in my life and not be so worried about my future or concerned with things that happened in my past. Those days are so few and far between that they're really ideal and it doesn't matter so much what I'm doing. I could be doing anything. It's just where I am on a serenity barometer. (laughing) and how I'm feeling.

‘Because I could have a day that, on the outside, looks like the best day in the world, and make it miserable for myself. Or I can have a day that seems so boring and a waste of a day, but it's the best day ever.’

MaryV
Yeah.

Tommy
So, I'm often trying to figure out- I'm often trying to stop figuring everything out. (laughing) Is really
what it comes down to, and allow myself to just be present and live in acceptance ...no matter what happens, kind of.

MaryV
Good.

Tommy
'cause I can be quite reactionary and driven, to the point of not being able to celebrate things or feel joy. So, I'm trying to be less of an intense feeler and more of a flat line (laughs) feeler.

MaryV
Yeah, I- I- but I do feel that intense feelings are good sometimes.

Tommy
They are. They are. It's just I end up living in a bit of a roller coaster of my own emotions and it's my own doing and no one else is to blame for how I react to things and iIt's very strange, 'cause sometimes really big things can feel the least meaningful to me, and I can have the smallest reaction to [it]... and I mean big in the positive, big in the negative, big in the global sphere, and I get sort of numb can set me off on- into  a whole other dimension of feeling.

MaryV
Okay. So, which people during this time do you feel  have been really inspiring or influential to you or in your life?

Tommy
I've found a lot of inspiration from plugging into uh, the White People for Black Lives movement in Los Angeles, but also Black Lives Matter movement and listening to people like Patrisse Cullors or Doc Melly or Thandi[we Abdullah] speak, not just weekly at rallies, but also  this is when social media can be really beneficial... although, at times, obviously, overwhelming- to read people's work that they've written, whether it's essays or through interviews that they're speaking about. And there are resources out there if you wanna find them, of course. And I'm someone who just loves reading and loves learning new things. And I think right now, it's really fundamental to participate in that kind of dialogue as much as possible. Uh, it's incredibly inspiring to see people who devote their entire to justice work-  it takes a very specific type of person to be an actual activist - a fighter for freedom and I'm in awe of those who do that on the frontlines every day, all day-

MaryV
Agreed, amazing. 

Tommy
I think it's important to acknowledge that some people can't participate in certain things including protests or demonstrations for mental health reasons or uh, other ... Whatever else, a myriad of other things that could be going on in their lives. And there has to be space held for those people as well.

MaryV
Hmm.

Tommy
You know, I think Future Janaya Khan is someone I was introduced to earlier this year, at the beginning of the revolution, if you wanna call it that. And they are a non binary co-founder uh, global advocate for Black Lives Matter. And they do a Sunday sermon every week that I don't miss because I always find it profound and revelatory, and inspiring. Something they said early on about movements like this or any movement in particular is that it's not a sprint. It is a marathon. And I think that kind of lesson can be used in all facets of life.

MaryV
Hmm. Yeah. Absolutely!

Tommy
Personal, career, or otherwise. I'm a sprint person and I often forget the marathon part of life. life is quite long and real fundamental change can take lifetimes to make happen. So, yeah, those are people that I'm looking towards right now. [End]